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This article just in from the Women’s Health Initiative Study, published in this month’s edition of the Archives of Internal Medicine, on the utility of taking multivitamins for postmenopausal women. Now since the marketing staff of the Drug Safety and Health News Blog have been conducting focus groups amongst the readers of the blog, we have learned that the average reader is a middle aged woman from Marin County CA with a family member with a history of heart disease and/or mental illness, who is concerned about developing osteoporosis, who has pondered over the utility of hormone replacement therapy, and who shops for organic foods and wants to put more fresh fruits and vegetables in her diet. That said, our readers should be interested in this post.
However, I am aware of the possibility that our readers have become attached to their multivitamins, having given up psychotropic drugs that they put high hopes in, but that turned to have more toxicity than therapy, or having flipped the bird at Sally Field and tossed their Boniva for osteoporosis prevention in the trash and turned to ‘natural’ vitamins and supplements instead. And since the Drug Safety and Health News has lost it’s advertising revenue from the pharmaceutical industry it is a bit going out on a limb risk losing it from the makers of vitamins and supplements as well. But any way (deep breath) here goes…
The study is from data from the Women’s Health Initiative, a large study conducted over many years on a range of health issues. The current article looked at 161,808 women with information collected on use of multivitamins over the course of eight years on average. There were no differences between women who did or did not take multivitamins in the risk of any type of cancer, heart attack or stroke. If anything the risk of death was increased by 2%, which was not statistically significant. Additionally, a report from last month from the Phyisicans Health Study, which reported on 14,641 male physicians over the age of 50, did not find any effect on any type of cancer or total mortality or heart disease with supplementation with vitamins C or E over the course of ten years.
I was watching public TV a couple of years ago when a researcher was being interviewed about the Beta Carotene and Retinol Efficacy Trial (CARET), in which 18,314 smokers took either beta carotene and Vitamin A or a placebo. He embarrassedly stated that the beta carotene (found in carrots and orange vegetables) and Vitamin, even though they are ‘anti-oxidant’ and theoretically should prevent heart disease and cancer, actually increased it in their trial. In fact people on supplements equal to four carrots a day had 17% more heart disease and were 17% more likely to die than people on a placebo. People taking high doses of Vitamin A also doubled their risk of fracture, leading Denmark to ban vitamin fortified Kellogg’s breakfast cereals.Alpha-Tocopherol, Beta Carotene (ATBC) Cancer Prevention Study smokers treated with beta-carotene and alpha tocopherol (Vitamin E) had an 8% increase in death, while those with a prior history of heart attack had a 75% increase in heart attack with beta carotene therapy. People on Vitamin E had a 2% increase in mortality.all studies put together, there is an increased risk of heart disease with Vitamin A and beta carotene and no heart disease prevention with Vitamin E. Vitamin A and beta carotene when taken together are associated with a 29% increase in mortality.study of Vitamin E combined with Vitamin C showed that vitamins actually accelerated the progression of thickening of the coronary arteries, and doubled the risk of dying of heart disease. Another study of a combination of anti-oxidants, including Vitamins E, C, beta carotene, and selenium, showed that vitamins actually blocked the effects of anti-cholesterol treatment (simvastatin plus niacin) on reducing atherosclerosis and preventing heart attacks and strokes. The vitamins in this study interfered with the ability of the other medications to raise HDL (good) cholesterol. Looking at all studies combined in which Vitamin E was given with beta carotene, there was a 10% overall increase in mortality. So there it is (sigh).
I found that pretty surprising, given all the hype you hear about the benefits of anti-oxidant vitamins.
I later visited my sister-in-law Rossana (pronounced ROE – SSSS – ana, as my kids always point out) in the US Virgin Islands. Rumaging in her refrigerator while she was at work (hey I didn’t have anything else to do) I found several large bottles of vitamins and supplements. I looked at the ingredients and found that she was taking Vitamin A at several times the recommended daily levels. When she got home from work I confronted her about it.
Doug: “Rossana, why are you taking so many vitamins and supplements?”
Rossana: “I don’t have time to cook meals and eat enough vegetables, so this gives me what I need.”
Doug: “But did you realize that the amount of Vitamin A you are taking may cause osteoporosis?”
[It's true-- women taking the highest amounts of Vitamin A supplements
I don't want to be dodgy and name the company that made the vitamins and supplements she was taking, but I looked them up on the internet, and if you followed their recommendations, you would be spending $7,128 dollars per year on their products!
Even though in the laboratory there has been shown some connection between oxidative stress and heart disease, and in spite of the known role of vitamins C and E as anti-oxidants, you can't get around the fact that there is now a large body of research including studies with tens of thousands of patients that have shown that vitamins do not prevent heart disease or lengthen your life.
In fact, they may actually have the opposite effect.
I think the vitamins may be giving a boost to little tumors that wouldn't have been a problem otherwise.
I know the readers of this blog are going to protest and say they didn't use the right dose or right type of vitamins. But why don't you just get your vitamins from natural sources instead of a pill? And what about the conflicts of interest of those trying to sell you something? Here at Drug News and Health Safety we have been growing our own herbs and vegetables from seed. There is an added mental health benefit in helping the little parsley plants raise up their tired heads from the earth.
We can do it. Yes we can!
My daughter always wanted to take a pill when she wasn’t feeling well when she was a little girl, so my wife, after she had given her various cold remedies or whatever, would give her a pine nut. It was small, and tasty, and you could almost feel its beneficial effects.
For all you do, this (pine nut) pill is for you!
Kind of like obecalp, the fake medication sold to kids to make them feel better. See my post “Mommy Can I Have a Yummy Blue Pill?” Oh btw obecalp is placebo spelled backwards (I said that to make your head spin around like they did on the Exorcist).
Hat tip to Mrs. Bremner.
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I drink EmergenC(sp)powdered fizzy drink in the morning and never get sick, I feel pretty good, and the hormones aren’t out of whack yet. I use a lot of fresh pressed garlic in things and raw on toast if I feel tired with a 500mg of vitamin C is about the extent of vitamin use.
I don’t know why anyone would believe the flying nun anyhow.
Luckily I have never been “very good” about taking vitamins so this is rather a” relief to me. I had read that bit about the vitamin A equivalent to 4 carrots” and it made me concerned about my occasional excessive carrot consumption. (I like to take a pound of baby carrots to the movies).
“”the average reader is a middle aged woman from Marin County CA with a family member with a history of heart disease and/or mental illness, who is concerned about developing osteoporosis, who has pondered over the utility of hormone replacement therapy, and who shops for organic foods and wants to put more fresh fruits and vegetables in her diet.”" Ha ha ha! That’s pretty much me except I live on the opposite side of the SF Bay in Contra Costa, though I GO to Marin at least once a week. What my Marin friends are touting right now is “Peter Gillham’s Natural Vitality Natural Calm” which is a magnesium citrate powder used to make a beverage. I was given a partial bottle by my friend and found it absolutely disgusting stuff. I suppose your above article absolves me from having to drink the nasty stuff. My friend keeps asking if I have ordered my own bottle of the stuff yet.
I went to the “Bay Area Environmental Education Resource Fair” a few weeks ago (in Marin!) and was surprised to see bowls of baby carrots, broccoli, celery, etc. being offered at booths in the vendor section the way that candy is frequently offered as a come-on by more traditional companies.
frankly I’m highly skeptical of studies such as these. Most people take vitamins with absolutely no potency. One a day type vitamins are useless…and generally it’s pharma who is behind making supplements look bad…
anyway, as far as cancer goes, I don’t know what vitamins per se do…I DO KNOW I’ve CURED several life long problems with supplements…
and when we’re talking chronic diarrhea for 20 years and dozens of gastro docs who are clueless and do nothing to help…I KNOW my research and self treatment healed me…
and that’s just one ISSUE I’ve healed with supplements and diet:
I’ve also taken care of
psoriasis
endometriosis
arthritis in my knees…
so I’m not with you here entirely Doug…my body responds to nutrients BIG TIME
and yes, I eat very healthy to to respond to the get our nutrients from natural sources…I eat better than anyone I’ve met and did not get the results prior to supplements.
Well, one thing I’ll say for you, Dr. B., you’re one of the few neuroscientists (that’s one of your descriptors, right?) who’ll write publicly about flipping the bird at Sally Field. So refreshing!
As for the Women’s Health Initiative, well, just because multivitamins didn’t prevent cancer or what-not, that’s not a good reason not to take a multi-vitamin. When did cancer and heart disease become the only two health problems you want to avoid? It’s such black/white thinking.
As for the study itself, well, here’s the problem….it was conducted by a lot of….well, scientists (or was it research physicians?). And sometimes they don’t make necessary connections, you know? It’s that high Asperger’s quotient in research, I guess (“The scientific profile”).
As far as a healthy diet obviating the need for vitamins/minerals, well, for most people that just can’t happen. Our agricultural practices mean that plants grow too fast to “fix” certain nutrients. That, and other factors, contribute to most of us being magnesium deficient, for example. Women of child-bearing age in this country are largely deficient not only in magnesium, but also in iron, calcium, and a host of other nutrients that are critical to developing a fetus’ neurological system. You can’t wait until you’re already pregnant; the die is cast.
But we haven’t even studied what a healthy diet it! How can we possibly know? There are so many variations in biochemistry. It’s sort of the last frontier.
Love the pine nut story. Mrs. Bremner sounds like a smart lady. How smart of you to marry her.
I think it is fine to take vitamins and supplements if they make you feel better. I just think they shouldn’t promoted for cancer reduction if that is not shown.
Reflecting on Gina Pera’s comments, I agree, and I wonder if Dr. Bremner has considered the question of diet and what the optimal diet might be. This issue has been a primary topic of debate among group of my friends. We agree on certain things such as vegetables are good and beans and legumes are good. We mostly agree that eating fresh fruit whole is good. Most are in favor of eating squash, potato, corn, and the starchy “vegetables”. Most agree that whole grains eaten in whole form are good. We run aground on issues of how much oil and of what type is acceptable and desirable, and how much and what type of protein foods is optimal. We’ve read lots of studies and have had intense conversation with no resolution.
Therapy Patient,
there is not one optimum diet. People have individual needs. There are certain generalizations such as, yes, veggies are important across the board…but from there it goes in all sorts of directions.
I’m allergic to peppers for example. They give me diarrhea, so that’s a veggie I won’t eat. There are actually a lot of unrecognized food sensitivities and allergies so the best way to find a good diet is to read a wide range of opinions and then experiment with what your body needs and likes…it takes some work and not everybody is up to it.
Anyone who generalizes about what is healthy for everyone is simply being dogmatic.
There is some data suggesting that people with vitamin D deficiency may have a higher risk of breast and colon cancer. This trial does not tell us anything about that issue, however.
It’s just odd to me that they’d look for a direct causal relationship between multivitamins and cancer — when so many factors affect one’s propensity to develop detectable cancers. It’s just more of the b/w thinking in allopathic medicine, IMHO.
I’m with Gianna. I discovered a long time ago — with no thanks to physicians — that my physiology requires large amounts of magnesium. (And I ignored the suggestion years ago from an older lady, thinking…what the heck is magnesium going to do for me.) Without it, I get neck tension quickly, sitting at the computer, and other muscle/tendon problems.
My husband jokes about it, saying, “What next? Molybeneum? Einsteinium?” But I tell you what….when his hay fever acts up, he asks for one of my concoctions: mag+ascorbic acid and lemon juice in a big glass of water. Works like a charm. And he’s really not auto-suggestible. Being a scientist, he was more skeptical that it could work.
Here’s some background on vitamin D and cancer:
http://www.cancer.org/aspx/blog/Comments.aspx?id=217
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2008/12/10/does-vitamin-d-protect-against-cancer/
I’m big on mag too Gina,
and that is one that a lot of people are deficient in and I think you mentioned that earlier.
I have muscle problems caused by drug reactions that I no longer take, but the mag definitely helps loosen me up…it’s also extremely important for bone density and some people say it’s more important than calcium.
I am interested in and have read alot about diet as well and we are starting to look at that in our research studies. My view from my readings is that (of course) fruits and vegetables are good, that it would be highly unusual for someone to eat enough “orange” vegetables to get Vitamin A toxicity (although theoretically possible), that fish and shellfish are good (we eat at least twice a week) that deep sea fish can be eaten but not by pregnant women (mercury) and not every day (advantages of omega 3 FA for deep sea fish v fresh water v mercury in deep sea fish)– we go for once a week for deep sea fish. We use primarily olive oil for cooking, drink wine, but dont completely exclude eggs and butter (margarine is worse!) as not convinced good evidence that cholesterol in diet translates into cholesterol in blood and therefore heart disease. We also eat a lot of pasta and couscous cuz my wife is Sicilian. Dont believe in low carb diet, no way. Also, we were vegetarian, or pescatarian really, until my daughter went to Italy for AFS this year as she was pescatarian. Now we eat meat 1-2 times a week. I am not convinced that amount has negative health consequences. And lots of nuts, pine nuts etc (“obecalp!”). Oh and fish oil supplements can make you smell and might cause cardiac arrythmia. better eat real fish.
you diet sounds good Doug…but for me…I need to eat low carb….it’s not a atkins or south beach thing…not at all…
I’m hypoglycemic and my blood sugar stays level best when I eat mostly dense high quality protein and veggies…I do eat WHOLE grains, but avoid products with flour, even whole grain flour.
I’m also allergic to wheat, but not gluten in general…
I will eat brown rice pasta from time to time. (hell I’m Italian, can’t cut it out entirely! but it’s a treat, not a staple)
I find with this diet I do not have to watch my animal fat intake, I have low cholesterol by eating low carb (not NO carb). There is some connection, though I don’t understand it, and I think it’s not with everyone, but I know my cholesterol went down when I identified myself as hypoglycemic and cut out refined grain products…I also limit fruit to one piece a day…too much sugar for me…
that’s me…and I spent a lot of time working on figuring it out…I tried vegetarianism and it DID NOT work for me…I would actually prefer being a vegetarian for philosophical reasons but simply don’t feel as well if I don’t eat meat and fish regularly.
and again, for me, I cannot drink caffeine, eat sugar or alcohol…instant negative reactions to all those things…
My husband eats all the things I don’t and has no problem, but is happy if I do the cooking with those things I can eat…I’m lucky that way. He’s a very unpicky eater.
Gianna: You said your cholesterol went down when you cut out refined carbs. My guess is that your cholesterol was affected by the transfats that have been so very prevalent in baked goods. What do you think? Is that possible? What type of refined carbs were you eating?
Marilyn Mann: I also recently read of the problems that vitamin-D deficient people have with osteoporosis and this is an avid interest of mine at present. I think the magnesium-bone connection and the vitamin D-bone connection is a VERY important avenue to pursue. As far as I am concerned it’s the “hot” topic concerning osteoporosis for me personally at present (since I am demographically on the brink of osteoporosis and trying to avoid it).
Gina Pera and Gianna: What you are saying about magnesium is EXACTLY what my friends are saying about magnesium. Looks like I will have to get with the program and drink the stuff. My friend (male, age 62) swears by a warm magnesium drink at day’s end with about 500mg magnesium because he feels that it is single-handedly responsible for stopping his leg-muscle cramps, plus he feels it relaxes him and makes it easier to fall asleep at night.
Gianna: I personally feel there really is a universal optimal diet, but that we don’t know what it is for certain. Yes, of course there are food allergies, food sensitivities and intolerances. Then there are folks with diseases such as diabetes, Krone’s disease, Celiac Disease, and other conditions (and medications such as Coumadin) that require special restrictions, but don’t you think, considering we are a single species that there ought to be an optimal amount of protein, vegetables, fruits, whole grains, oils, beans, legumes, fish? My perspective on the issue is that humans historically (back in prehistory) were the original scavengers eating leftover carrion, game we killed, fruits, nuts, roots, anything, so we can get away with tossing just about anything down the hatch. But if we want to feel the best, live the longest, that there’s a perfect diet out there. I think it’s lucky that our physiology is so “goldarned” flexible because so many people don’t eat even remotely close to optimal. In the late 60′s and early 70′s when combining (vegetarian) protein types was the rage it worried me when my protein intake at a meal wasn’t “complete” and I worried about all those incomplete proteins bouncing around in there. Then they discovered that the body just bides it’s time and waits until the missing protein shows up. Whew! “Body” ‘s got us covered! Well, despite the body’s great tolerance for any old crap down the hatch, I still believe in the perfect, the ultimate, and I’d like to find out what that is. What Dr. B has listed is about what I currently believe is optimal, but still I wonder.
TF,
nope, i think we evolved all over the globe and have different needs and the mere fact that there are food allergies and sensitivities indicate this to me…especially since most people have no idea they have these allergies…I was not aware of mine for the first 4 decades of my life.
and no…it’s not the trans fats…I never ate trans fats…have never ate junk food per se…have always had a relatively healthy diet, but needed to tweak it a lot for it to get optimal for ME…and I continue to try to learn more ways to make it even better.
there is some correlation in some studies which indicate too many carbs can raise cholesterol…I simply don’t know enough about it but if you do a google search you will be able to find such info…
there are lots of books on the myths surrounding cholesterol…probably some of those cover what I’m talking about.
cholesterol is not the bogey man it’s made out to be…that’s another big pharma creation in order to push another dangerous class of drugs STATINS…
of course when cholesterol gets too high as in hereditary disorders we’re talking about something else altogether.
oh, but TF there are people who share your view..about one optimum diet, though you might not share the view that the one they push is that diet…
the Paleo diet is an example of a diet where people try to replicate early human diet and think it’s the best for everyone…
it’s not a bad diet for some…but it’s not good for me..it does have NO grains as early humans hadn’t started farming…
I do need some grain and have experimented with none.
Gianna: Thanks for your insight.
Interesting conversation here – I came here in search of WHETHER anyone suffered from food allergies AFTER menopause.
Nope answers seem not to be forthcoming. Although my allergies may be b’c of Hep C and my liver’s inability to digest easily some things.
I have allergies to ALL milk products – I can take SOME small amounts once in a while.
Gianna – Have you tried Spelt flour? It’s a European flour and I’ve found it to be very nice in baked goods – usually bread, muffins, scones – etc.
I can’t tolerate any chocolate, sugar or white flour.
So I enjoyed those in my earlier years.
Thanks
Oh – and I’m going to a Naturopathic Dr. and he has me on about 30 supplements a day and glutathione slow I.V. push 5cc’s once every two weeks.
I take something called Tri-Magnesium. The one thing I don’t like about it is that I used to rely on my tight muscles to lift things – Heavy things – and now they’re not as tight and I am experiencing some x-tra pain b’c of that. So it’s all an experiment at this point.
I take no tablets – only gel caps, or capsules.
Hi Bevy,
Spelt is actually an ancient relative of wheat and since I’ve discovered I was sensitive to wheat I’ve avoided it assuming it might cause similar problems…BUT I read somewhere just a few weeks ago that it does not cause the same sensitivities for a lot of people that wheat does…SO I did in fact buy a loaf of spelt bread just a few days ago, but it’s in the freezer and I haven’t tried it yet, so I’ll find out soon!!
If I think of it I’ll try to report back. thanks
I take magnesium since constipation became the norm once I entered menopause. I did some probiotics and digestive enzymes as well but have stopped taking them after doing so for 6 months. I basically eat protein and vegetables and not a lot. I’m lucky to get 2 fistfulls of food down per day. I do so much better keeping my stomach at 80% full. I dance for exercise. My HDL last check was 131. I have a cholesterol of 257. I won’t go near stress. That will kill you. So will exercizing too much. My inner voice has told me not to take vitamins. It’s a pain anyway. It’s not real food, and if the body sees them as fragmented and not whole, it’s likely to do more harm then good. I stay away from genetically engineered foods as well, for that same reason. I go shopping in the fresh produce section and leave. What’s a potato chip? I don’t eat boxed or can goods except for sardines. I dont’do well with anything that turns to sugar in the body, so no bread, pasta, rice, or potatoes. I do cheat on occasion. I think sugar is a killer and when you raise insulin levels, you get bad cholesterol and other reactions in the body. It’s all about keeping the blood sugar low. The longest lived people had high cholesterols especially for HDL, and low blood sugars.
According to Penan sources, Interhill has had the Penan intimidated by armed thugs on various occasions for purposes of asserting its interests vis-à-vis the local communities. ,
Don’t you think you get vitamins from foods?? If you do then do those cause cancer too?? I don’t think taking a natural vitamin is going to cause cancer anymore than the vitamins you receive from your natural foods would. Think about it. Try talking to a Shaklee vitamin Distributor, now those are some good multi’s and thousands of tests each year are done on them, they are made with natural ingredients that the body recognizes. What would be the difference of the food you eat in giving you vitamins and the cancer risks, it just doesn’t make sense to me as if vitamins cause cancer then we are going to get cancer from eating food as well, no matter how healthy you eat because eating healthy has vitamins!! It just does not make sense.
Vitamin A has been known to produce some toxiciy – I believe in large amounts – However, as a post menopausal woman I know that my nails and hair are brittle without a good vitamin. With one – they grow – the nails are hard and the hair is a lot healthier.. There are somethings to take and some to watch in moderation – others you may need for your particular situation and allergies, etc and needs…each person is different….the hormonal replacements in herbs and such should be recommended by someone knowledgeable in what mixes with whatever you might already be taken – what your situation is medically and such…but some do help and some don’t….There are alot that do…but it’s important that each person know themselves and get individual guides…
I generally eat a very healthy diet but its almost impossible to get everything I need from food. Most food sources now are depleted in vitamins and minerals. I take a liquid vitamin and it really makes the difference in how I feel.