Men on Women and a Woman on Men
The title of the book in question was originally Men ON Women but as author Barbara Silkstone got into interviewing over 500 men on their opinions about women, sex, and relationships, the men relaxed in her one on one chats and became emotionally naked with her, hence she changed the title to 527 Naked Men and One Woman: Adventures of a Love Investigator, which you can buy here.
Barbara Silkstone
I found the book fascinating (as a psychiatrist) for the wide range of nuttiness found in the men’s attitudes about love and sex, which seemed to boil down to either I am looking for my life partner and that one wasn’t it, or she just stayed at home with the kids and had no goals and I want a woman with goals, and on and on. Men shared their confusion about what they thought they wanted and how unhappy they were when they actually got it.
I recently interviewed the author through email and here are some snippets:
DOUG: How did you come up with the idea of the book?
BARBARA: I was just coming off of a second divorce and felt like I was taken financially by my ex. I was sure he had a hidden agenda. I have a lot of really great guy friends and I thought there must be some guys out there who marry for true love and don’t just worry about the money. I started with a list of eight guys willing to be interviewed about their relationships. When the word got out that there was a woman who wanted to hear about their thoughts on relationships and wasn’t judgmental, the word spread through the guy-network and then around the country. I traveled for six years just listening to men. Can you imagine?
DOUG: Was there anything that surprised you about the interviews?
BARBARA: Some of the men’s attitudes about relationships were a lot worse than I had expected. It got pretty hard to listen to after a while. It took a toll on me emotionally. There were many days went I spent the mornings with men who were having mulitiple affairs and justified them and then afternoons with single men who were helping married women cheat and those single guys had all sorts of justifications. Few of the men ever used the word love.
DOUG: Was there a certain answer that ran through all the interviews?
BARBARA: I would ask the men if they would be willing to die for the woman they claimed they loved. Only 14 men out of the 527 said yes and yet half the men were married. Their response was usually…’You’re not gonna use my name, right? Then, ‘Of course I wouldn’t lay down my life for my wife. She has no goals. I still have things to do with my life.’
It got me wondering whatever happened to those romantic guys from days of old who marched off to defend their women folk? How did we lose them? Where did they go?
DOUG: I was surprised at how many men looked at relationships from primarily a self centered perspective, or that worried about things like not getting bogged down with a ’stay at home mom’. And yet they were so unhappy.
BARBARA: Yes it is pretty remarkable. I started out with a plan to interview 1000 men in one year. But after six long years and a couple of melt-downs I had to stop at 527 guys. I had no more emotional strenght left – and I’m a pretty storng lady.
DOUG: Has this affected your own view of dating?
BARBARA: I haven’t dated since I finished the last interview. I’m a perfect example of biting off more than you are trained to digest. Since I finished the interviews. I became THE WOMAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH. What I did was an excellent job of biting off more than I could chew. I had no way to put all this knowlege into prospective. I am my own collateral damage.
DOUG: What are you working on now?
BARBARA: I’ve just completed a novel titled THE SECRET WORLD OF ALICE IN WONDERLAND, AGE 42 AND THREE-QUARTERS. I discovered that we all live in some version of Lewis Carroll’s reality. If we can just learn to laugh at ourselves we’ll survive and get a few giggles along the way. My Alice has some crazy quirks – she suffers from Alice in Wonderland Syndrome and nibbles on little pink pills to keep her cool. She’s dying to live in England and almost does. Gangsters pursue her and she runs into the arms of a charming British conman. It’s a bit like A Fish Called Wanda.
DOUG: Barbara has agreed to hang around and answer questions about love and relationships on the comment section. Thanks for agreeing to being interviewed!
BARBARA: Thanks for having me!
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By Steve, January 4, 2010 @ 5:31 pm
Looks like a really interesting read- thanks for posting the interview and link.
Clearly marriage failure is quite common in our society and this looks like a good (depressing) look into some of the reasons.
I can’t help wonder if there was some unintentional selection for more dysfunctional relationships– are there examples of ones that work?
I don’t have a lot of insight as to how straight men/women view their relationships- I wonder about the comparisons/contrasts with gay men/women.
By Doug Bremner, January 4, 2010 @ 10:06 pm
I’ve talked about that with gay friends of mine and one obvious difference is that there are no kids involved, unless they adopt. So it is like you can just pick up stakes and leave whenever. But what is the satisfaction of that, living with someone that thinks they can just pull up stakes whenever?
I had a similar thought to yours, that Barbara was getting the divorced losers who had a fundamental issue. But I still think it is interesting nonetheless. There are a lot of those guys out there and they don’t want you to know about it!
By Madison Woods, January 4, 2010 @ 10:11 pm
Hi Alice,
This is a fascinating topic. I’ve always wondered what it is that drives men (and women) to cheat – is it human’s animal nature and they just get tired of fighting instinct? Or is it just that some haven’t evolved above that behavior? Or is it that we, as a society, have moved away from some of the fear that once drove religion and our idea of God is less fearsome? What do you think after all that research?
By Madison Woods, January 4, 2010 @ 10:12 pm
forgot to hit the notify of follow-up button
By Steve Bremner, January 4, 2010 @ 10:34 pm
Pithy questions at the heart of what is real. You can go very deep with this pursuit. Deep into the heart of darkness…
By Doug Bremner, January 4, 2010 @ 10:49 pm
Well from reading the book most men use a lot of justifications for what they do (surprise, surprise). Looking at it from a biological viewpoint there is the impulse to spread their seed versus what is a chemical attraction to one woman, which helps the woman raise the child during the time she is defenseless. Obviously selectedin evolution
By Madison Woods, January 4, 2010 @ 11:00 pm
I think these people (cheaters) are one example, among many, of ’symptoms’ of a deeper, root cause. I also think our society’s norms, are not long-term viable for humans as a species. That said, I am not a cheater. Commitments are important and shouldn’t be violated. My reasons for feeling that way aren’t because of societal expectations. But I can look at the phenomenon from outside my own perspective.
By Amy Philo, January 4, 2010 @ 11:25 pm
Looks like a fascinating book.
By Doug Bremner, January 4, 2010 @ 11:26 pm
why are society’s norms not long term viable for the species?
By Madison Woods, January 4, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
The norms seem to be consumer based, and the criteria for choosing partners is too shallow. I think if we don’t re-focus on things that are more important, it’s all going to just degenerate into chaos again. Might take a long time, but that’s how it looks to be headed to me. Less peace, more stress and rat-race to win some unidentified prize. Or maybe I just forgot to put on my rosy glasses this morning and have a bitter outlook?
By Madison Woods, January 4, 2010 @ 11:37 pm
I’m one who made poor choices based on shallow reasoning, BTW. It could be influencing my thinking
By Anonymous Coward, January 4, 2010 @ 11:43 pm
…But what is the satisfaction of that, living with someone that thinks they can just pull up stakes whenever?
There is great satisfaction in living with your best friend.
By Doug Bremner, January 4, 2010 @ 11:44 pm
I guess legs, breast, cash. All reasons NOT to choose a partner, Noo? I mean you have to sit next to them and watch TV for hours and such, hmm?
By Madison Woods, January 5, 2010 @ 12:16 am
…But what is the satisfaction of that, living with someone that thinks they can just pull up stakes whenever?
The flip side of that question is who wants to be with someone who is only there because of commitment?
There should be some middle ground somewhere…
By Doug Bremner, January 5, 2010 @ 12:40 am
Ha ha! Madison you are always full of surprises!
By Therapy Patient, January 5, 2010 @ 3:19 am
I think an equally dark side would show up in similar interviews with women. I am 58, and the single women I talk to who are in the 45-70 year old range mostly want men for sex and occasional companionship and nothing else, if at all. A close friend is so burned out on men she would not consider dating again.
By Madison Woods, January 5, 2010 @ 9:26 am
…mostly want men for sex and occasional companionship and nothing else, if at all…
I should not comment and spare my reputation. LOL.
Ok, I have to comment. On this point, I think men and women, deep down, want the same thing. And if our society was geared more to community caring and working for child-rearing and production of items to consume, rather than depending on one mate to do all that in small family units, there would then be Utopia. THAT would be a sustainable society. But I don’t see it happening with the current institutions of religion in place.
By Steve, January 5, 2010 @ 9:28 am
RE: “just pick up stakes and leave whenever.”
Certainly some gay relationships are entered with such an immature cavalier attitude… but I can assure you that children or not, after 22+ years my partner & I have way too much invested in our relationship than that. and I don’t mean financially– that would be the easiest thing to manage!
It comes down to, as A.C. says above, “living with your best friend.” That doesn’t quite do it justice, but comes close.
I can’t help wonder if societal norms are an issue as M.W. mentions- clearly not all societies are as strict in expectations.
Interesting discussion and thought, but have to get moving this AM!
By Madison Woods, January 5, 2010 @ 10:08 am
Soul-mating, lifetime commitments, would still be a celebrated and wonderful event.
By Doug Bremner, January 5, 2010 @ 4:48 pm
Barbara emailed me her responses (btw Barbara you should join facebook cuz there are about 35 comments over there)
1. Steve:
There was no deliberate strategy on my part. I knew I needed to keep the interviews balanced, and so I would qualify the guys before I headed out to listen to their tales. About 50% of the men were married and most of those claimed to be happily married. The confusing part was that once they opened up, they did not sound very happy. It was as if they had programmed themselves like Steppford husbands. I AM HAPPY. I AM A FAILURE IF I AM NOT HAPPILY MARRIED.
I found that the gay guys I interviewed – if they were in a committed relationship – were much more committed to their partner. Maybe it was fear of loneliness, or maybe they placed a higher value on their word.
One of the thoughts I came away with was that frequently men harbor that little boy deep inside. The one that felt as if he could put something over on mom (can’t fool dad.) It’s still there with a lot of these guys. It’s the competition and also the idea, can I sneak this one past her? Just one more time, and then one more time. Go Tiger.
Madison,
I got the feeling that guys saw cheating as:
1. Sex is fun – that’s an easy answer.
2. The competition. I’m smarter than she is. I can get her in bed and my wife/girlfriend won’t find out. AND even if wife does find out, she won’t leave me. Where would she ever find a prize like me? I’m one of a kind – said the senator to the governor to the president to the golfer.
3. And yes, men who were active in their churches were much less inclined…not perfect… but less inclined to cheat. Whereas guys who saw themselves as examples of what a religious man should be cheated like bandits, and wrote it off in the confessional.
More to follow.
In general one of the things that stood out was how the ME-generation has affected / infected the other generations. When I started the interviews, I could count on guys of a certain age being all about honor. That changed as I progressed through the six years of listening. Somehow the concept of honor disappeared down a black hole, and sucked the older generations with it.
Used to be that guys knew at a certain age they had to turn themselves in to “finishing school” – the military. They knew exactly what to expect and when to complete the wild-oat sowing. I’m not advocating the return of the draft, but a young man did know what to expect and what was expected from him at 18 -at 21 -at 25. Older guys I interviewed were darn proud of their military training -whatever type of training it was. We don’t have that benchmark anymore.
Now men have no idea what’s expected of them. Guys and girls are free-wheeling and texting about themselves 24/7. All of a sudden their every thought is somehow important to everyone on their network of friends. They’ll do or say anything for attention.
It’s almost like relationships are less about sex and more about competition and headlines.
More to come
The happiest marriages I found were those that were:
1. childless by choice
2. had married their high school / college sweetheart. These couples found each other early before any major damage was done to their beings. They grew together and supported each other like two trunks of one tree. These men were truly happy and didn’t have to tell me how happy they thought they were. It showed in the use of the word “we” instead of “I” and/or “my wife.”
That’s it for today!
By Steve, January 5, 2010 @ 5:23 pm
Thank you for the responses Barbara, makes the book and discussion much more intriguing.
To be clear, I never would have thought you had any intent to skew the “results” of your interviews.
But the examples you have shared here, and the effect you describe it having on you (understandably!) lead me to believe that the greatest majority of men have very serious issues with relationships.
Such findings are really striking and worth looking at further.
Perhaps some of the big money being spent in “defense of marriage” would be better channeled to funding such a project!
I’ll have to read though your remarks regarding the other comments. again, thanks!
By Doug Bremner, January 5, 2010 @ 6:04 pm
I found this book intriguing because I like to watch how people crack and fall apart.
By Madison Woods, January 5, 2010 @ 8:24 pm
Thanks for sharing your insight on that, Alice. It does sound like a depressing trend you’ve found.
By Susie, January 6, 2010 @ 5:14 am
By Doug Bremner, January 5, 2010 @ 6:04 pm
I found this book intriguing because I like to watch how people crack and fall apart.
—-
… said the rubber necking psychiatrist??
By Doug Bremner, January 6, 2010 @ 8:37 am
ha ha
By Susie, January 6, 2010 @ 9:18 am
Did you come across the story about a dating website that kicked people out because they have gained weight during the holidays? “beautifulpeople” — the name of the site alone says a lot about their mate-finding criteria…
By Doug Bremner, January 6, 2010 @ 9:43 am
I saw that, that was pretty funny. I’m thinking that relationships, at least in the US, are a lot more messed up than I thought they were, probably because the media is training people to focus on superficial attractions, and if that is the basis of your relationship, then what if something else catches your eye that comes along?
By Crazy Mermaid, January 7, 2010 @ 12:38 am
If you like to watch people crack and fall apart, it sounds like Barbara came very very close to becoming your entertainment. Speaking from the perspective of someone who did crack and come apart, I can tell you that the manic side is the most seductive drug in the universe, but the depression side is just this side of Hell. I hope Barbara, had she gone there, saw the manic rather than depression side of “cracked”.
By Joseph Arpaia, January 7, 2010 @ 10:00 am
Barbara,
Sorry you got hit so hard emotionally, but you had a hidden selection bias. You did not interview a random sampling of men but rather ONLY MEN WHO WERE WILLING TO “OPEN UP”.
As a psychiatrist I can assure you that you did not get a representative sample. You inadvertently selected for people who needed to confess, and used you for that purpose.